::: the brothers
The tragedy of The Matrix Reloaded is not only that it abandons the savior motif it so obviously advertised in the first film for a bait and switch, but also that the product delivered in the sequel is not even good old Hinduism or Buddhism—or even relativism for that matter—but a vapid and reheated heresy packaged in a smart business suit and sold at a price in a hotel conference room.
::: Click here to read the full text.Yeah, I'd have to agree that the Master Computer probably isn't
"omniscient" even with the limited world of the Matrix. It makes programming sense, but even more than that it's made explicit in the second film. Remember there are a number of programs that "aren't doing what they were designed to do" (according to the Oracle) and are "hiding out" in the Matrix.
I would say that from the machine point of view Neo is a program, he's being treated like a program, and he's not completely running properly. THe machines have had him on a short leash -- I think that was part of the Merovingian's point -- and like it or not he's been, for the most part, doing what they wanted him to do. This doesn't mean he IS a program, though. We need to see the machines as a character/group of characters that work from a certain, provincial in their own way, point of view.
Neo's limitations consist of not seeing the whole picture, and by extension the fact that his abilities are limited to his imagination. I think the fact that he was able to short out the Sentinels at the end of the second movie represented a quantum leap in his awareness.
Jim
You have to understand computer programming to understand why it would have programs to monitro events inside the matrix. Computers programs are not a program, only the most basic one 20 years ago were. A modern computer program or aplication is made up of a few dozen to several thousand individual programs that all work together. So the Structure of the matrix with it sentinal programs makes complete sense, without granting human characteristics to the machines.
It is possible that the machines are conscious of the ends. They say that someone has to die in order to add a sense of urgency to the human's mind which spurs them into action and causes them to make the changes that THEY want made. I mean, if the machines have created this entire world to enslave all of mankind, how is it that they need programs to monitor events inside the Matrix? Why isn't the master computer omniscient? I'm watching these films and between the Oracle and the Architect, they're controlling Neo just as much, maybe more, than the Matrix does the non-freed minds. Isn't it possible that there has only been one Matrix and all of the rest of it, including the 'real world', are all part of the Matrix, lies to make certain troublesome humans to do what they want? I think that Neo is the only human yet to be free of the Matrix.
That's it, though -- the AI isn't creating Zion, it's just letting people leave and create a Zion, which it can afford to do given that it can efficiently destroy it once it grows enough to be a threat. The Architect was absolutely certain that Zion would be destroyed this time around, saying they've gotten very good at it.
I have a hard time with the premise that an AI that gained consciousness would be free from pride, ego, vanity...why? Consciousness itself presupposes the possibility of these, since they're simply inflations of the individual consciousness made possible by self reflection.
However, when I describe the premise of the machine as "the rationalist's dream" this doesn't require vanity, in a human sense, on the part of the machine. It's the vanity of reason itself -- the belief that it is sufficient, by itself, to control all. That vanity is very common and even expressed in films like The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. It is always wrong, of course, as you observe -- the very opposite winds up defeating it. In the case of the Matrix, this is going to be a combination of religious consciousness with romantic love.
Probably the best analog to this in the films is the fact that these death prophecies all come literally true but are never final. The Architect was right, Trinity did die. Neo brought her back. The Oracle was right, Neo had to die saving Morpheus. Trinity brought him back. It's the irrational ending that the machines either never see or dont' want to see.
I agree, though, that the Matrix follows many other Sci-Fi films (you left out the Terminator) in how it uses its premise, and yes, it is all Frankenstein. For that matter, you could say it's Oedipus or Genesis. I would say the Matrix is different, though, in that the control doesn't just extend to physical slavery of human beings, but to cover human consciousness as well in as total a system as possible.
Jim
All science fiction using the concept of man being overrun by machine has used the same premise; that mans downfall has been the methodical, logical, unemotional, aspects of machines that make them superior (of is always turns out that the opposite ends up saving mankind) Dune, terminator, the Matrix, Maniac Cop (really bad), are really all extensions of Frankenstein anyway. But if you going to use the idea of artificial intelligence in a computer as being in control, then you must assume human characteristics like pride, ego, confidence, are void from this artificial intelligence. Given this the idea that the computer would create a real Zion instead of a comp/gen zion in the matrix is highly unlikely.
In the sentence, "leave" referred to what Neo would be allowed to do after his "unique insights" were incorporated into the Mainframe, so it would be after Neo left that particular room. It makes the most sense if it refers to leaving the Matrix.
The Architect made it pretty clear that the 1% of error was something they couldn't get rid of -- people were always going to be escaping. What his goal seems to be is to account for every possible permutation with each Zion that rises and falls, incorporating each one into the Matrix until all possibilities were exhausted and the Matrix had total control again.
This is obviously a rationalist's fantasy, of course, but we have no reason to believe the machines aren't kidding themselves about a few things either.
Again, I'm not saying it's not possible that Zion is part of the Matrix. I'm just pointing out a couple things that point away from that. I suspect the ambiguity -- the possibility that this could be true -- was deliberate.
Jim
Let me put it this way, it might make more sense. Why would the architect let people leave the matrix, and start a city, that would one day try to destroy the matrix. It seems like one hell of a gamble, unless the city would also be in the matrix, and at all times in its full control. The strife needed to make the people happy and keep the matrix stable need not come from reality, but only the appearance of it.
Leave could also imply leaving the room that the architect was in.
It's just that word "leave" -- it implied "leaving" the matrix. Again, this isn't a slam dunk. Even if the Architect wanted Neo to think he'd be allowed to leave the matrix, that doesn't mean he wasn't lying. There no reason for the machines to tell the truth unless it served their goals of control.
Jim
The architect saying Neo could have 24 women and 7 men to restart zion doesn't imply that Zion is outside of the matrix. If fact the concept that Zion has been started over and over again, would be dramatically easier if Zion was in the matrix.
Remember that last conversation with the Architect? If Neo went back to the mainframe, he'd be allowed to "leave" with 24 women and 7 men to restart Zion. This implies Zion is outside the Matrix.
But again, all this depends upon whether or not the Architect was lying or telling the truth to Neo. IF Zion is within the Matrix, it's clearly in the best interests of the Matrix to let them think it's outside it.
I think Neo's control of the machines is possible without Zion being a part of the Matrix, but hasn't been explained yet. I expect that to happen in the third film. One possibility is that Zion is indeed part of the Matrix; I'm just saying it's not clear that's the case yet, evidence points to the contrary, and we won't be sure till the third film.
It's also possible the WB would leave this question open. There's a dialog of Plato that asks the question Morpheus asked Neo in the first film: how do you know if you're asleep or awake when you have a very realistic dream? This dialog is also relevant to Alice in Wonderland, another literary point of reference for the first film. The question was never answered in the dialog.
Jim
The architect hints that Zion has be created, and destroted over and over again. He doesn't say whether it was done so in or out of the matrix. Plus at the end of the film Neo is able to control the sentinals as if he was still in the matrix (because he was, but hadn't realized it yet).
Continued from below:
6. The Oracle was an intuitive program designed to help the Architect create a Matrix people could accept and live within. So she's part of the system and her "help" will always be designed to ultimately serve the goals of the system. That's part of the point the Merovingian was trying to make to Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity -- they weren't players because they didn't really know what was going on, just pawns.
7. Neo is different, according to the architect, because his attachment to humanity is focused upon a single individual -- Trinity -- rather than to humanity as a group. That makes him exceptional among all the other Ones, and makes his decisions happen a bit differently too.
Neo is primarily special because of his abilities in the Matrix.
But we see in Agent Smith (ultimately an Anti-Christ of sorts) and in Neo that the dividing line between the machine world and human is permeable. Smith can inhabit human consciousness outside the Matrix, Neo can control machines outside the Matrix. I think they both have an exceptional connection to the machine world, special abilities.
Neo would be a savior if he defeats the machines before they defeat Zion. What connection this has to anything supernatural is up for grabs, I think. Religious imagery seems to be adopted not because the WB's love it so much, but because it's the only way we have of talking about the emancipation of human consciousness -- which ultimately validates religion, but we shouldn't misunderstand its role in the films.
The only questions I can even try to answer are the ones that reference the films already released, though, and of course different answers are possible. I think your questions are pretty interesting and do reflect different possibilities. If the Architect was lying, as you say, all bets are off :).
Jim
Question 1 -- I think that last conversation between Neo and the Architect pretty well prevents us from thinking Zion is within the Matrix assuming, of course, that the architect wasn't lying.
Question 2 -- follows from above.
3. Following questions 1 and 2, Neo isn't a program but a biological life whose consciousness is aligned with his physical environment, as opposed to having a consciousness determined by a machine. Neo, though -- in fact, the whole Zion thing -- is the product of a programming glitch that allows 1% error (in other words, we could say it allows 1% of those caught in the Matrix to wake up and realize their lives have been determined by a machine).
4. The Merovingian seemed to be defined by the control of, and access to, information. I take it, then, that he's a very old program, and not a former version of The One. It's not at all clear why he's important. Hopefully he'll play a significant role in the last film. If they just drop him, that'll be a creative failure on the part of the WBs.
5. Smith is a renegade program hiding out in the Matrix. His ability to replicate himself and inhabit the human consciousness of those he takes over means he could, conceivable, take over the Matrix and, at the same time, cure the programming glitch. All consciousness would then be Smith's, or the machine's. But then the consciousness of the Machine itself would be Smith's, a sacrifice on the part of the machine that developed the Matrix and all other programs, for that matter. So Smith is a bit of a renegade in the machine world, as well as being a serious threat to humanity. Neo will have to take him out.
more to come.
Jim
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Think of it this way? Do you have microsoft windows? Is Mcafee anti virus supposed to make your computer run like s*** and lock up all the time? In a system as small and simple as your PC programs lock up all the time, they fight for system resources, and some just don't work. The original program for the system that would become the matrix would have had to be programmed by less then perfect humans, or by other machines programmed at some point by humans. So the matrix would be doomed to flaws. Also consider that Neo is a program, and that he is not flawed, but a subroutine to the defender of Zion program that offers enough strife and drama to keep the human batteries happy.