::: EON: Everything’s Obsolete Now
It’s not a story. It’s not a philosophy. It’s a global marketing experiment that’s all about control. And George Orwell saw it coming. ::: Click here to read the full text.
No, not sarcasm. I was being stupid.
Very clever comment on your part :)
I was refering to the marketing layout chart in the article.
You mean the last scene, where he was jacked in by the Mainframe to fight Agent Smith? Was his body in a crucifix position at the end? I may have missed that...
A few holes in this theory. My favorite is the claim that revolutions does not focus on Jesus/christianity. Neo was literally crucified in the movie.
I knew it. For some reason i edited my last posting and left this part out but now it seems neccessary:
“Don’t bother validating your point because i’m not that interested in following you along those lines, it's highly debatable and i would need to go over a lot of stuff to do you justice.”
but my invitation still stands, Go for it!
Regarding your view of the S&M in the film, that’s one way to put it. Another way is:
“Hmm i feel weird. I think i’m different, i feel different from people at work. I think there’s something wrong with this picture. Maybe i need to go to an S&M club, where all these also weird, different, beautiful people, clients of mine, bend the rules of sexuality and play with the roles of power and control, to find my path as the one. I’m kind of shy so i’ll wait for someone to make contact. Then this beautiful woman, dressed in black latex comes......”
Things have changed. All the weird beautiful people now are in this other club, hell, where a power addicted program with a lot of personality, good taste and who thinks is the devil runs the show. Even Seraph, who guards that which is most important, used to be a regular here. Once again, the girl in black latex plays a very exciting russian roulettte (the only way it could be in this place) that leads her to the one. In the meantime, the weird, beautiful people keep dancing, bending and twisting before Agent Smith comes and uniforms them all. The only thing that can save us from the terrible, infinitely reproductive cold virus of sameness is the one.
I appreciate that you were making a point about marginalism. I think it's pretty complicated, though. The S&M club in the third film was the Merovingian's hangout. Since they're associated with this powerful figure, are they marginalized? But wait...the Merovingian is an exile from the machine world, right? So he's a marginalized figure in relationship to the machines. But wait...he's always holding all the cards when the humans come to him. He had the Keymaker and controlled access to the Train Station where Neo was stuck. So the humans are marginalized figures in relationship to the Merovingian, and certainly, by and large, in relationship to the Matrix. The machines make all the rules and control all the doors in and out of it.
So who's marginalizing whom? Where does the deviant sexuality fit into this?
"Your point on that certain books of the bible containing social criticism constitutes them as “basis for modern deconstruction of societal control ” seems a bit farfetched, but it’s the new millenium so go for it."
Read Daniel and Revelation in any good English translation then get back with me. It's more far fetched to deny the influence, honestly, especially since it has its roots (largely) in 18th and 19th century German idealism, which is unquestionably a derivation from German protestantism.
What's even worse, though, is that influential members of these schools even offered the same critique. Adorno's critique of Heidegger's existentialism in _The Jargon of Authenticity_ essentially says that the jargon, having been abstracted from Christian speech and having removed God, has left a power vacuum that the Nazis were able to fill.
Max Stirner's critique of Marxism is that Marx simply substituted the State for God -- otherwise, the whole this is similar to religious structures.
The only two plotting here are you and me. It is just a fact that some groups or societies are identified as part of certain religious-cultural tradition. That's what i meant and i regret having mentioned it because it has kind of derailed the process but my question/point was about the importance of the element of "marginalism" (for the lack of more specific vocabulary on my part) present in the movie via S&M clubs but certainly notable in other aspects of it, also present in certain theorist.
Nietzsche owns the 20 century (ironically i think he died 1900). Either way, i was refering to posterior theorist like Foucault, Derrida, Barthes, Fanon, Cornell West, Spivack, Levi-Strauss etc. I think the element of “marginalism” is present in all of them.
Your point on that certain books of the bible containing social criticism constitutes them as “basis for modern deconstruction of societal control ” seems a bit farfetched, but it’s the new millenium so go for it.
Very stimulating pseudo-talking to you. I just realized i have spent most of this week thinking about S&M. Thanks.
Yeah, I think we see history a bit differently. But this --
"I think it's not about understanding control but about questioning control and the structure that provides control. To me it's all about the questioning (it is what drive us) and our willingess to disobey."
We're definitely on the same page there if you mean that's what the movie is about.
My impression of S&M is not that it's about questioning control, it's about making a fetish out of control -- sexualizing it, almost worshipping it, making it your all in all. So S&M, while it does challenge traditional sexual mores, simply reinforces control mechanisms even more than traditional sexual relationships. At least the "white Christian male's wife" could have a headache some nights, you know? :)
I see, in the Hebrew Scriptures, the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, and I think Zecharaiah (among others) as being foundational works of social criticism. In the Christian NT, of course the book of Revelation and parts of the Gospel accounts develop this tradition.
I'm not sure what is much older than these documents in the western tradition. The Critical Theory tradition out of which the WBs drew so many of their themes is a descendent (of sorts) of German Idealism (via Kant and Hegel), which in their own ways are secularizations of German Protestantism. The only people that got away from this were the egoists -- Stirner, Nietzche. Schopenhauer influenced N. and was in turn influenced (sort of) by the Vedas, but he was already going in that direction because of his study of Kant. You don't really see much reference to Vedic literature in English letters until...don't know...16th, 17th century.
It's a typical Marxist line that the church is running things in collusion with the corrupt state, but I think we're in a post-Christian society now. There's a dim humanist Christian consciousness pervading some of our moral judgments. That's it, though.
I think you're probably right about that an S&M practitioner could be aware or unaware of control issues as anybody else but, even if he is not aware of it, he's questioning that control. I think it's not about understanding control but about questioning control and the structure that provides control. To me it's all about the questioning (it is what drive us) and our willingess to disobey.
I apologize for my lack of care when making certain generalizations. They are as weak as any generalization is. That been said, certainly the late works of theory have emerged more from the "marginalized" than from more conventional mainstream society and it is not without reason (also the beginings of christianity). I think the movie is very aware of that and it's essential to the movie.
I agree with you that christianity is praticed in many different ways but i wasn't trying to be that specific. I was talking about christians in a more historic-political sense and who as a geopolitical group certainly are very powerful and are pretty much in control (if that's even possible). As nations and societies they guard most of the doors and they have most of the keys.
About your comments that "the apocalyptic tradition in Christianity is the ancient basis for modern deconstruction of societal control mechanisms", i haven't studied anything much, much less the bible, if you could enlighten me i would appreciate it. As far as i knew, the apocalyptic tradition is not original from the bible.
"Would it be that the ones doing S&M inside the Matrix (willfully submitting to the will of others who at the same time are
unconsciously submitted by the machines), are more aware of the irony of control. Why did Trinity chose an S&M club to have
her first encounter with Neo?
It seems that underground, edgier, marginal lifestyles are more aware of the control issue than mainstream society. There's little
reason for a white christian heterosexual male living in the US to question reality, while for a marginalized individual it seems
much more probable."
I'm not able to speculate on Trinity's motive. Neo was led there by a guy attached to a little group of people he'd sold underground software to. Trinity's speech to Neo, though, was a propos to their environment, if I remember right. It may have been a good visual illustration of Neo's current state.
I wouldn't say that people into S&M are more in tune to control issues than a "white Christian heterosexual male," though. They've sexualized their control issues, that's all. So what? Not everyone feels that need. That doesn't mean they don't understand control, though. How control issues are handled by a "white Christian heterosexual male" is largely dependent upon the type of Christianity he's associated with. My experience has been that control issues are usually defined along authority/responsibility lines -- the guy would see himself as being under some authorities and as an authority in other circumstances. Christianity, though, especially the brands that emphasize the NT, tends to emphasize a reality/appearance distinction, and the apocalyptic tradition in Christianity is the ancient basis for modern deconstruction of societal control mechanisms.
I Like. I think i was a little reactionary with my previuos comment and i was speaking more of our own matrix but your comment put us back in perspective.
Now that i think about it makes perfect sense; bondage inside the Matrix and more libertine sex in zion.
Would it be that the ones doing S&M inside the Matrix (willfully submitting to the will of others who at the same time are unconsciously submitted by the machines), are more aware of the irony of control. Why did Trinity chose an S&M club to have her first encounter with Neo?
It seems that underground, edgier, marginal lifestyles are more aware of the control issue than mainstream society. There's little reason for a white christian heterosexual male living in the US to question reality, while for a marginalized individual it seems much more probable.
Either way, celibacy is not justified in any way.
There were three "dance club" scenes in the entire trilogy.
The first and third films' dance club scenes took place in S&M clubs -- the first film's scene was shot in an actual S&M club in Australia. The people you see are real clients.
The second film had a dance club scene in the "real world," in Zion. This was the total opposite of S&M -- complete liberation, rather than bondage and restraint, were the norm. People both have single partners (Neo and Trinity) in monogamous relationships, and they trade partners freely.
At any rate, the S&M stuff was all associated with the machine world. A sexual trope for control once again. The sexual images of liberation were all associated with Zion.
Hi Jia. I read the article in Wired a couple of weeks ago so i don't remember it all that well but i don't see what L. W. life's has to do with the first or any movie.
First of all, the figure of the Author as part of the art work is dead (intentional falacy). The Literary theorist, formalist, structuralist and poststructuralist etc., already dealt with that perception.
Secondly, if you're talking about the rumors that L.W. likes to dress in women's clothing and has a known dominatrix as girlfriend i don't see anything contradictory between that and the original Matrix. Actually, breaking the molds of sexual roles or so called "normal sexual behavior" is very brave and rebellious. In relation to what the movie portrays, traditional sexual roles are what the Matrix offers and if you disobey and behave differently you're more human than the rest. I'm pretty sure that all this partying and different sexual manifestations were happening in Zion.
Read: You nailed it again. Read the article in "Wired" to see just how screwed up Larry Wachowsky has become in the process of tasting money, sex and power. There is a good reason why priests are required to take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Larry W is a living testament to these corruptive powers which are so clearly attacked in the first film. He and Andy appear to be the latest victims of the demons they warned against in the trilogy: Pitiful, puny humans that have lost control and themselves.
While I agree that marketing was really important in the making of this movies, I think, or at least wish to think, that it has to do mainly with the budget spent on making them and the need to recover that movie, and obviously for the studio, to make profit. But I don't think that's all that was taken into consideration nor that it was a deliberate effort to cash in from each corner of the world, that sounds way to Illuminate to me.
In any given case, the religious references are present in the three movies, sometimes being mixed. The perfect example is Christ and Buddha, Neo is both and is obviously demonastrated in the first and third movie, with Neo finding his strenght inside him but also dying and resurrecting in the first one and then looking with his mind, being blinded, but also dying to save all in the third, And to that you can add gnosticism, greek mythology, philosophy from plato-descartes to kiekergaard/sartre-like existentialism (smith) and usual free will vs determinism debates (merovignian, oracle, counselor hamman). There are also mathematical references and homage to other movies.
But anyway, like I said, marketing can't be denied.
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